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[Biohazard WANTED $675 Outlaw]

Edit: not even joking, I wrote this post before I saw @eejit101 response, and he’s raised amazingly similar points (even using Jammin’ Jars as an example) as I have, haha. Mad.

“This slot is random” – public notice on many slot machines. Moving from a networked physical slot machine with a pc inside, to a pc with a browser window changes what ? Nothing from my point of view.

The physical construction means nothing, I agree with you. That’s not what makes it random at all. What makes it random is the classification of the game and the notice “this machine is random”. If it has that statement, each spin is random. This isn’t up for debate. What could be a debate here is whether you trust each individual slot or provider that they are adhering to gambling laws.

But at least you are now happily admitting that a bonus is rigged.

I have always been very happy in stating that most bonuses are pre-determined, this isn’t a new revelation? It’s actually quite common knowledge. Rigged wouldn’t be my choice of words, but I understand where you’re coming from in regards to the bonus.

I will repeat – the outcome of each individual spin is random. That is, in regards to the amount won. The graphical representation of that win can vary greatly.

As an example to this, let’s say you’re playing Jammin’ Jars on £1/spin. On a given spin, the RNG generates a result that gives you a win of £845.60. It could quite easily just skip all the visuals and say “Win: £845.60” and move onto the next spin, but instead, it represents this as a bonus. The way the jars move, the wins that you get, on each spin in the bonus, may seem random, but it’s not. It’s pre-determined and just graphically showing you how you achieved your win. Why? Because it’s more engaging for the player.

But what you need to take away from this, is yes, the way the bonus played out visually isn’t random, but the win, the £845.60, absolutely is. I really don’t understand why you can’t grasp this point. Me, Argyl and others have articulated this in so many ways, but you’re still refusing to listen to what we’re saying. Any developer that works in this industry can confirm what I’m saying here.

I implore you not to just disregard this post, because it’s the truth.

As a side-note, not all bonuses are pre-determined from the point you press spin. Some gambles have elements of randomness to them, and certain pick features (albeit these days, very few by the look of it) are random too.

Random and RTP are not 100% separated. Therefore there IS rigging, in EVERY slot, on EVERY spin. It doesn’t matter if it’s a weighted dice (structured reelset) or not.

A weighted dice is a (somewhat) incorrect way to describe the randomness of slots. With online slots, there are simply more RNG outcomes that result in a low win amount than a high one. A better analogy would be to have a 100,000,000 sided dice, where only if you land exactly a 1, 2 or 3 would result in a monster win.

You keep referring to the business model, in that it’s not in the business’ interest to use randomness to control the outcome and payouts of their games. But this is nonsense, as randomness is an excellent control mechanism (again, research the law of large numbers).

 I said I’m not paranoid, Please don’t play with that word when talking to me.

Who’s playing with that word? You said you’re not paranoid, and I agreed with you. Being paranoid and being wrong are two very different things.

[Mr Mr B WANTED $395 Blocked]

Before I even begin to get up tomorrow and go into this more indepth, I want to know what validation you can put to your statements. is it like a players validation of decades of experience teamed with other players shared experience or do you actually design and write the code for existing machines or have torn apart source code to validly KNOW it’s exactly as you say it is ?

And I feel I should clarify that I don’t care about random to the extent of you might get a cherry or an aubergine there, if it equals the same thing, a loss or indeed a win. I am talking about the overall random bs that tries to claim no connection between RTP and random. Hence me using the word “rigged”. I am not here trying to claim I know HOW it is rigged but I am outright stating that EVERY spin is rigged to RTP regardless of figures.

If we cannot understand that between us then we are going to get nowhere. The industry is RIGGED for profit. That is the only reason to own a company in the gaming industry. You or argyl said each spin is random and unconnected to any other spin. I 100% disagree and cannot fathom how anyone could even remotely believe otherwise. Again, truly 100% random means the players as a collective, over trillions of spins are making as much as the industry and every company collectively.

I don’t care if the RTP and RANDOM are welded together with duct tape and a verbal promise. They are connected. Therefore NOT 100% random. You don’t let someone piss in the soup and still eat it.

[Malkychamp WANTED $486 Outlaw]

I can see it from both of your points of views. Yes it can’t be completely random as you say as the casinos will never make a loss with these games. However to the player it can still be random or every player would have the set rtp from the game

[Du Dune2000 WANTED $205 Blocked]

I’m guessing the reason there is a BIG WIN page and no CRAP WIN page is because the bandits broadband couldn’t take the amount of network traffic from pics of CRAP WINS.

Lets be honest, for one guy to win £45k on a £7 stake, thousands have to take a royal ass raping on their bonuses.   Go by the principle that “it’s not going to happen to me and I will end up losing all my money” and 99% of the time you will be right.

Congrats to the lucky 1% however 🙂

[Biohazard WANTED $675 Outlaw]

You or argyl said each spin is random and unconnected to any other spin. I 100% disagree and cannot fathom how anyone could even remotely believe otherwise.

It doesn’t really matter if you disagree, it is how it works. As I said last night, this element isn’t really even up for debate. This is on the same line as saying the Queen doesn’t exist. Well… she does. You can’t really have an opinion on that, it’s a fact that she exists.

What could be up for debate is whether you trust that an individual slot or provider is utilising a true random system, or is (illegally) compensating the game whilst still listing the statement ‘this machine is random’.

Again, truly 100% random means the players as a collective, over trillions of spins are making as much as the industry and every company collectively.

Again, no it doesn’t mean this. At all. 100% RTP would mean that, sure, that both the players and industry even out and no one profits nor loses in the long run.

But 100% RTP and 100% random are completely different things. There is a house edge, sure, and this is built into the paytable and the frequency of wins within the game’s programming. This is often around 96%, giving the house a 4% edge over the player(s) over a long period of time. But the outcome of each spin does not get modified, in any way whatsoever, to move closer to that 96% RTP. The RNG, used against a pre-set outcome combination dataset, does this for them. How? Again, I must revert back to the law of large numbers.

@argyl53 articulated this quite well by actually building a slot and showing us how it works:

Let’s look at a slot’s programming

They are random.

[sp springbrucesteen WANTED $77 Outlaw]

Dune2000 wrote:

I’m guessing the reason there is a BIG WIN page and no CRAP WIN page is because the bandits broadband couldn’t take the amount of network traffic from pics of CRAP WINS.

Lets be honest, for one guy to win £45k on a £7 stake, thousands have to take a royal ass raping on their bonuses.   Go by the principle that “it’s not going to happen to me and I will end up losing all my money” and 99% of the time you will be right.

Congrats to the lucky 1% however

? fuckin pissing myself laughing at that idea ……… CRAP WIN page , actually think it would be funny as fuck to have a crap win page

[ar argyl53 WANTED $419 Outlaw]

Particularly I would refer people to the post Calculating the probability in my thread showing a simple slot program for an understanding of how independent, random results can yield a designed long-term RTP. I’ve broken it down in that thread and others several ways, including an example using a simple random dice roll. I honestly have no idea how to break down the concept and maths any further to explain it.

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