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[ar argyl53 WANTED $419 Outlaw]

Also on the topic of Millionaire, don’t forget even if on each individual gamble, you had an 80% chance of winning, your odds of winning 5 in a row are still a minority 1 in 3. Random probability can be a counter-intuitive trickster like that.

[ImperialDragon WANTED $70 Outlaw]

I thought I’d bump this thread for Argyl as I found this an interesting read.

I don’t know PHP, but your program reads similar to how it would have been in if it was written in JavaScript, Python and Pascal (a combination of those).  Your REM statements explained the program very well and teaches a good starting point in slots maths.

There was a debate on page 1 here about what random is.  I know that some programming languages will use a lookup table which is just a large set of numbers where were pre-determined back at the factory.  An example of this is on the BBC Micro computer, where using the RND command will output the first result seen in the table.  If you switch the BBC off and back on again, RND will pull the first result again.

In QBASIC (PCs running Windows or DOS), you can type in RANDOMISE TIMER, then any RND commands after that will use the CPU’s clock.  Each second is divided into milliseconds (and even smaller segments) and the RND command will pull whichever thousandth or millionth of a second it was on in order to generate a result.

For slots, they can be online or offline (arcade / shops).  I’m not sure about offline, but online slots will be (or should be) sync’d with the World Clock, as per Android and Apple devices that are always online.

[eejit101 WANTED $312 Outlaw]

Mr B wrote:

My post from the ‘other’ thread:

I’m done with this bullshit. I know I am right and will not support the bullshit. Since insults have been thrown and admin have intervened, I have nothing further to say on the subject.

Controlled random. Not quite random but worth taking the piss out of people over. It seems.

I promised Seedy i wouldnt start fires… but dude. Your talking out of your ass. This is like telling airline pilots how to fly planes. When all youve done is watched Top Gun and touched yourself.

[ar argyl53 WANTED $419 Outlaw]

ImperialDragon wrote:

I thought I’d bump this thread for Argyl as I found this an interesting read.

I don’t know PHP, but your program reads similar to how it would have been in if it was written in JavaScript, Python and Pascal (a combination of those).  Your REM statements explained the program very well and teaches a good starting point in slots maths.

There was a debate on page 1 here about what random is.  I know that some programming languages will use a lookup table which is just a large set of numbers where were pre-determined back at the factory.  An example of this is on the BBC Micro computer, where using the RND command will output the first result seen in the table.  If you switch the BBC off and back on again, RND will pull the first result again.

In QBASIC (PCs running Windows or DOS), you can type in RANDOMISE TIMER, then any RND commands after that will use the CPU’s clock.  Each second is divided into milliseconds (and even smaller segments) and the RND command will pull whichever thousandth or millionth of a second it was on in order to generate a result.

For slots, they can be online or offline (arcade / shops).  I’m not sure about offline, but online slots will be (or should be) sync’d with the World Clock, as per Android and Apple devices that are always online.

REM, QBASIC….good lord, that takes me back!! On the point you raise, there are a couple of points I think are worth clearing up, which I have mentioned elsewhere but will go over again:

Computers physically are deterministic state machines, really they’re very, very fancy calculators. They are not capable of being what you might call “true random”, since they can only operate on algorithms. The algorithms computers use to create sequences of numbers which appear random are called “pseudo-random number generators”.

These are just fixed mathematical formulas which take some input number (we call this the RNGs “seed”), then do some arithmetic stuff with it to transform in to a different number. This number is then used as the seed to the next request for another random number. What we commonly do in non-sensitive computer contexts – i.e. where we want a number which is more-or-less random but unbiased, “true random” results are not really important – is make this “seed” the current time measured as the number of seconds which have elapsed since midnight on January 1st 1970. At the time of me writing this, the current time using that measurement is 1552081455.

This is okay in many contexts – it means that if we ask for a random number between 1 and 100, we can get any number in that range and which one depends on what algorithm we used and the exact time the computer generated the result. That’s random enough for something like viewing today’s forum posts in a “random” order instead of by most recent.

But obviously the drawback with this method is if you know the algorithm and the seed, you can calculate what the next “random” number will be, because it’s not truly random. This would not be acceptable for online slots – it wouldn’t be fair for either the player or casino if you could theoretically calculate what the result of a spin would be at some particular time in advance of it actually happening. Slots emphatically do not work that way.

So how do slots running on deterministic computers generate random results? Well, they still ultimately use pseudo-random number generators, but they are not seeded based on time. Instead they use what we call “cryptographically secure pseudo-random numbers” and without getting in to too much technical detail, these kind of RNGs are much closer to “true random” than the kind I’ve described above. Instead of using the time as the seed, these use a combination of multiple seed values which cannot possibly be known in advance. The particular sources vary, but can include quantum phenomena such as radioactivity, computer device noise such as the number of running processor threads and other things which are physically unpredictable and vary every fraction of a second. The statistical outcome of these CSPRNGs is indistinguishable from true random and cannot be cheated or predicted. This makes their use suitable for sensitive situations such as cryptography, or in this case random slots.

[ar argyl53 WANTED $419 Outlaw]

Also if anyone is a bit of a maths geek, these are interesting reads:

Mersenne Twister is the PRNG algorithm most commonly used in computing for non-sensitive situations, as its results mirror true random very closely and make it appropriate for scientific uses such as simulating physical processes. It is not a CSPRNG as its outcomes can be intelligently distinguished from true random if both the use of the MT algorithm and internal system state are known.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersenne_Twister

CSPRNGs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographically_secure_pseudorandom_number_generator

 

[Mr Mr B WANTED $395 Blocked]

eejit101 wrote:

Mr B wrote:

My post from the ‘other’ thread:

I’m done with this bullshit. I know I am right and will not support the bullshit. Since insults have been thrown and admin have intervened, I have nothing further to say on the subject.

Controlled random. Not quite random but worth taking the piss out of people over. It seems.

I promised Seedy i wouldnt start fires… but dude. Your talking out of your ass. This is like telling airline pilots how to fly planes. When all youve done is watched Top Gun and touched yourself.

Seriously, you talk to people like this KNOWING what has already transpired ? Is it ok for me to respond with the same lack of respect ? I mean, is that what we want for Bandits forum ?

[eejit101 WANTED $312 Outlaw]

Mr B wrote:

eejit101 wrote:

Mr B wrote:

My post from the ‘other’ thread:

I’m done with this bullshit. I know I am right and will not support the bullshit. Since insults have been thrown and admin have intervened, I have nothing further to say on the subject.

Controlled random. Not quite random but worth taking the piss out of people over. It seems.

I promised Seedy i wouldnt start fires… but dude. Your talking out of your ass. This is like telling airline pilots how to fly planes. When all youve done is watched Top Gun and touched yourself.

Seriously, you talk to people like this KNOWING what has already transpired ? Is it ok for me to respond with the same lack of respect ? I mean, is that what we want for Bandits forum ?

Firstly – you show lack of respect yourself in your replies and amusing edits of people posts. Especially posts people spent a long time doing complex work and maths on creating.

Secondly – What am I “knowing” what has transpired? Am i missing something?

Finally –  You arguing a factual proven point against 4 people who work in the field, and in one case, directly doing the job you are saying isnt true?

[Mr Mr B WANTED $395 Blocked]

Firstly should have started with secondly thus putting you in no place to judge.

You haven’t answered my questions and seem to want to justify your actions while you still have questions that should have prevented you judging and regardless, I have zero rapport with you. We to my knowledge have never interacted before so I can only fathom your “missing something” and failure to adhere to your promise to Seedy says more about you and your lack of respect than anything you can even begin to judge about mine.

Wanna start again ? You have some trawling to do. An apology to make, to myself (who knows right) and Seedy & Bandit.

I can be all crass and resort to insults but I have maintained a frustrated albeit locked stance on my views in this random BS matter.

Oh and yea, I don’t trust the system. However that doesn’t blind me like an anti-systemic dumbass. You nor these people know me. I try to live good with people, I try to speak my mind without persecuting people. I also have no inner wish to cause someone a bad day.

AND I FUCKING HATE BEING CALLED DUDE.

[Du Dune2000 WANTED $205 Blocked]

OK so I don’t have the brains of you guys on this issue clearly, but I have a problem with some of the language

The gist seems to be that the slots are random number generators which can produce any results.  But then we go on to say that a house edge is built in, which surely means that they cannot be random, else how can you build in an edge.   And here comes my next question, if you can build in an edge what is to stop you reprogramming that random slot to give yourself a greater edge.

I have observed slots where the average payout reduces based on your stake – again this seems to imply that  this randomness is controlled else how could you facilitate a different level of RTP for each stake.

So all of this to me creates doubt on the industries use of the phrase random number generator, its seems to be more a controlled random number generator which is a contradiction in terms.

 

[od odd Job WANTED $8 Blocked]

Dune2000 wrote:

OK so I don’t have the brains of you guys on this issue clearly, but I have a problem with some of the language

The gist seems to be that the slots are random number generators which can produce any results.  But then we go on to say that a house edge is built in, which surely means that they cannot be random, else how can you build in an edge.   And here comes my next question, if you can build in an edge what is to stop you reprogramming that random slot to give yourself a greater edge.

I have observed slots where the average payout reduces based on your stake – again this seems to imply that  this randomness is controlled else how could you facilitate a different level of RTP for each stake.

So all of this to me creates doubt on the industries use of the phrase random number generator, its seems to be more a controlled random number generator which is a contradiction in terms.

 

well put, simple and no technical crap.

Play these programmes for fun, stop worrying about rtp, algorithms etc.. The house has the edge and always remember these programmes are designed to payout less that they take, that is not luck, that is by design

[Haz40 WANTED $1,167 Outlaw]

odd Job wrote:

Dune2000 wrote:

OK so I don’t have the brains of you guys on this issue clearly, but I have a problem with some of the language

The gist seems to be that the slots are random number generators which can produce any results.  But then we go on to say that a house edge is built in, which surely means that they cannot be random, else how can you build in an edge.   And here comes my next question, if you can build in an edge what is to stop you reprogramming that random slot to give yourself a greater edge.

I have observed slots where the average payout reduces based on your stake – again this seems to imply that  this randomness is controlled else how could you facilitate a different level of RTP for each stake.

So all of this to me creates doubt on the industries use of the phrase random number generator, its seems to be more a controlled random number generator which is a contradiction in terms.

 

well put, simple and no technical crap.

Play these programmes for fun, stop worrying about rtp, algorithms etc.. The house has the edge and always remember these programmes are designed to payout less that they take, that is not luck, that is by design

In a nutshell and at last language i understand at last. ??

[Eightblack WANTED $446 Outlaw]

Mr B wrote:

Firstly should have started with secondly thus putting you in no place to judge.

You haven’t answered my questions and seem to want to justify your actions while you still have questions that should have prevented you judging and regardless, I have zero rapport with you. We to my knowledge have never interacted before so I can only fathom your “missing something” and failure to adhere to your promise to Seedy says more about you and your lack of respect than anything you can even begin to judge about mine.

Wanna start again ? You have some trawling to do. An apology to make, to myself (who knows right) and Seedy & Bandit.

I can be all crass and resort to insults but I have maintained a frustrated albeit locked stance on my views in this random BS matter.

Oh and yea, I don’t trust the system. However that doesn’t blind me like an anti-systemic dumbass. You nor these people know me. I try to live good with people, I try to speak my mind without persecuting people. I also have no inner wish to cause someone a bad day.

AND I FUCKING HATE BEING CALLED DUDE.

Ah man I must have called you dude twenty times lol sorry bud

[ar argyl53 WANTED $419 Outlaw]

Dune2000 wrote:

OK so I don’t have the brains of you guys on this issue clearly, but I have a problem with some of the language

The gist seems to be that the slots are random number generators which can produce any results.  But then we go on to say that a house edge is built in, which surely means that they cannot be random, else how can you build in an edge.   And here comes my next question, if you can build in an edge what is to stop you reprogramming that random slot to give yourself a greater edge.

I have observed slots where the average payout reduces based on your stake – again this seems to imply that  this randomness is controlled else how could you facilitate a different level of RTP for each stake.

So all of this to me creates doubt on the industries use of the phrase random number generator, its seems to be more a controlled random number generator which is a contradiction in terms.

 

How slots can be both random and have an RTP is exactly what I explained in this thread, but here’s a way of understanding that’s a little less mathematical:

Imagine a dice roll game, two normal six sided dice. It costs £1 a play. If the total on your dice after rolling them is 8 or higher you win £2. If not you lose.

Random and RTP is that simple – the outcome of the dice rolls is genuinely random, but you only have a 41% (5 out of 12) chance of winning. When you do win, you win double the stake. This means in 1000 plays of that game, if I was the casino, I would take in £1000 in revenue, but expect to pay out around £820 in winnings. Thus the game has an RTP of 82%.

Slots are a little more complicated but the basic principle is the same – the outcome is the dice roll, it’s random and can’t be manipulated. The design of the game (typically via the layout of the reels and the paytable) creates a theoretical RTP which the game will meet over millions of spins.

[Haz40 WANTED $1,167 Outlaw]

argyl53 wrote:

Dune2000 wrote:

OK so I don’t have the brains of you guys on this issue clearly, but I have a problem with some of the language

The gist seems to be that the slots are random number generators which can produce any results.  But then we go on to say that a house edge is built in, which surely means that they cannot be random, else how can you build in an edge.   And here comes my next question, if you can build in an edge what is to stop you reprogramming that random slot to give yourself a greater edge.

I have observed slots where the average payout reduces based on your stake – again this seems to imply that  this randomness is controlled else how could you facilitate a different level of RTP for each stake.

So all of this to me creates doubt on the industries use of the phrase random number generator, its seems to be more a controlled random number generator which is a contradiction in terms.

 

How slots can be both random and have an RTP is exactly what I explained in this thread, but here’s a way of understanding that’s a little less mathematical:

Imagine a dice roll game, two normal six sided dice. It costs £1 a play. If the total on your dice after rolling them is 8 or higher you win £2. If not you lose.

Random and RTP is that simple – the outcome of the dice rolls is genuinely random, but you only have a 41% (5 out of 12) chance of winning. When you do win, you win double the stake. This means in 1000 plays of that game, if I was the casino, I would take in £1000 in revenue, but expect to pay out around £820 in winnings. Thus the game has an RTP of 82%.

Slots are a little more complicated but the basic principle is the same – the outcome is the dice roll, it’s random and can’t be manipulated. The design of the game (typically via the layout of the reels and the paytable) creates a theoretical RTP which the game will meet over millions of spins.

How many times have you had to say that. ??

[ar argyl53 WANTED $419 Outlaw]

Too many, my friend, too many 😀

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