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[ar argyl53 WANTED $419 Outlaw]

@TheReelStory indeed Mersenne-Twister would actually produce “acceptably random” results as far as the Gambling Commission is concerned, the reason it would never be used for a slot is precisely because any exploitability would, as you say, be in the player’s favour. As far as producing statistically random results over a large sample size goes, MT is a very good algorithm.

[ar argyl53 WANTED $419 Outlaw]

Haz40 wrote:

I have 5 GCSE’s C and above plus a GNVQ level 4 in business and finance. Does that qualify for joining this debate?

You can have failed kindergarten, going by thread precedent you need only claim to be a genius to take part. Pick an IQ; I don’t want to be outdone so I’m going with 3874 for mine, plus membership of NANSA, which is a super duper elite combination of Mensa and NASA so exclusive most people have never even heard of it. We’re the organisation that rigs slots, and invented memory foam.

[TheReelStory WANTED $14 Outlaw]

argyl53 wrote:

@TheReelStory indeed Mersenne-Twister would actually produce “acceptably random” results as far as the Gambling Commission is concerned, the reason it would never be used for a slot is precisely because any exploitability would, as you say, be in the player’s favour. As far as producing statistically random results over a large sample size goes, MT is a very good algorithm.

Yeh, the company I used to work for had an RNG based on the Mersenne Twister. It was actually a collection of about 36 twisters in sequence, each seeding the next and producing random numbers one by one, reseeded by a slower cryptographically secure algorithm once each twister had produced about 300 numbers.

So we had the benefit of the speed of the twisters (pre-populating pools of random numbers for efficiency) but never letting them get to the point of predictability.

It passed accreditation so it was all good haha.

[Anonymous WANTED $483 Inactive]

Head totally blagged ?

But…..

I kind of understand both sides to this random debate.

One side is saying man made tech being truly random simply cannot happen. This I have agreed with many times. And is a 100% fact. Every part of the Rng and other A.I can be manipulated.

And the other side is saying yeah but…..here’s a bunch of stuff to maybe prove your 100% fact maybe wrong.

its just like the fucking rigged debate all over again.

The only real truth here, is non of you really know how these slots work once they are out of your hands. Yeah you know the maths and percentages on how it has been designed. But once it’s left the shop any program can be manipulated to high fucking heaven.

 

 

[Anonymous WANTED $483 Inactive]

No one will EVER know how the percentages and odds work on online slots…..Once they are on the casino slots list. Simple.

[Green2711 WANTED $492 Outlaw]

Haz40 wrote:

I have 5 GCSE’s C and above plus a GNVQ level 4 in business and finance. Does that qualify for joining this debate?

Sorry Haz but you must sit in the corner wearing a dunce hat, only people with Einstein level IQ can debate this subject. ???

[sl slottinggooner WANTED $23 Outlaw]

Roshtein, where do I begin. Firstly there is nothing skilful about what he does, it may even be construed as borderline deceptive. The reality is he has a massive following, and it is that following that allows him to negotiate the best affiliate deals any streamer will have. He claims only to use a handful of casinos, but a lot of casinos are not prepared to give him deposit bonuses of 300% with 30,40 or 45x wagering.

He talks about affiliation a lot on his stream, but what he does not say is how his own deposit bonuses are hugely more lucrative than the deposit bonuses he offers people who click his signup. I have an EV calculator, and based on playing Book of Dead (one of his go to slots) his EV for £270k of wagering with a 2k dep 6k euros bonus is over 2000 euros for each bullet he fires. I will gladly remortgage my property, and play slots every day for this edge over the house.

That creates for a situation where he regularly has big hits and cashouts, people who see this on stream instantly think they can replicate this when the reality is they are being suckered in. The casino does not have a large edge on the initial signup, but as soon as a punter deposits raw cash, Roshtein can pretty much look forward to 30%+ of their losses. If there is a negative month where there are lots of big wins, then he doesnt make any money from affiliation, but as we have seen he’s making a killing from just playing every day.

The other thing I don’t like is a lot of the “career” streamers suck up to him. They know the score, but purely on a business level, it’s not in their interests to out what I consider as shady practices. You can’t even discuss it on their streams.

If you like what he does in the form of entertainment, and I do sometimes watch him. But I wouldn’t touch any of his links with a bargepole.

The most honest streamers/content producers around today are the Bandit (and I am not just saying this because it’s his forum) and Rocknrolla. Both play high stakes predominantly with raw cash. They are also in different ways as entertaining as Roshtein.

 

 

[Anonymous WANTED $483 Inactive]

Green2711 wrote:

Haz40 wrote:

I have 5 GCSE’s C and above plus a GNVQ level 4 in business and finance. Does that qualify for joining this debate?

Sorry Haz but you must sit in the corner wearing a dunce hat, only people with Einstein level IQ can debate this subject.

I seriously have a headache after reading this thread.

Tbh my IQ has no place in this discussion.

Think il just bow out now lol

[TheReelStory WANTED $14 Outlaw]

Just Basics wrote:

Head totally blagged ?

But…..

I kind of understand both sides to this random debate.

One side is saying man made tech being truly random simply cannot happen. This I have agreed with many times. And is a 100% fact. Every part of the Rng and other A.I can be manipulated.

And the other side is saying yeah but…..here’s a bunch of stuff to maybe prove your 100% fact maybe wrong.

its just like the fucking rigged debate all over again.

The only real truth here, is non of you really know how these slots work once they are out of your hands. Yeah you know the maths and percentages on how it has been designed. But once it’s left the shop any program can be manipulated to high fucking heaven.

 

 

Just Basics wrote:

No one will EVER know how the percentages and odds work on online slots…..Once they are on the casino slots list. Simple.

Well… no. What we’re saying is that the RNG’s that are used, while maybe not 100% pure true random, are very close and for the sake of what they are used for, mean that the resultant products (the slots) are totally random. Also, about the manipulation thing… not really. Nearly all this stuff is compiled code that actually doesn’t even run on the Casino’s systems (it runs at the game provider level) so it can’t be manipulated.

Everyone who makes a slot knows the percentages and odds. What you’re implying is that once it is given to a Casino, they change a bunch of stuff? No, not how it works. Again, Casino’s don’t actually take the slot logic on to their own systems. The slots run on the game providers systems and again, it is all pre-compiled packages that are hashsummed to ensure they are the accredited versions that were independently tested. Additionally, the same logic is often in use by multiple Casino’s at once, so for one Casino to start modifying outcomes would be extremely difficult.

So yeh, sorry, but your assertions are totally wrong. My company deployed hundreds of games to many Casino’s, and we knew exactly how they worked at all times, knew what versions were deployed and had 100% access to check at all times. The reality is, Casino’s simply don’t care that much. They just want good games. They don’t really like to get involved beyond that.

[Anonymous WANTED $483 Inactive]

TheReelStory wrote:

Just Basics wrote:

Head totally blagged ?

But…..

I kind of understand both sides to this random debate.

One side is saying man made tech being truly random simply cannot happen. This I have agreed with many times. And is a 100% fact. Every part of the Rng and other A.I can be manipulated.

And the other side is saying yeah but…..here’s a bunch of stuff to maybe prove your 100% fact maybe wrong.

its just like the fucking rigged debate all over again.

The only real truth here, is non of you really know how these slots work once they are out of your hands. Yeah you know the maths and percentages on how it has been designed. But once it’s left the shop any program can be manipulated to high fucking heaven.

 

 

Just Basics wrote:

No one will EVER know how the percentages and odds work on online slots…..Once they are on the casino slots list. Simple.

Well… no. What we’re saying is that the RNG’s that are used, while maybe not 100% pure true random, are very close and for the sake of what they are used for, mean that the resultant products (the slots) are totally random. Also, about the manipulation thing… not really. Nearly all this stuff is compiled code that actually doesn’t even run on the Casino’s systems (it runs at the game provider level) so it can’t be manipulated.

Everyone who makes a slot knows the percentages and odds. What you’re implying is that once it is given to a Casino, they change a bunch of stuff? No, not how it works. Again, Casino’s don’t actually take the slot logic on to their own systems. The slots run on the game providers systems and again, it is all pre-compiled packages that are hashsummed to ensure they are the accredited versions that were independently tested. Additionally, the same logic is often in use by multiple Casino’s at once, so for one Casino to start modifying outcomes would be extremely difficult.

So yeh, sorry, but your assertions are totally wrong. My company deployed hundreds of games to many Casino’s, and we knew exactly how they worked at all times, knew what versions were deployed and had 100% access to check at all times. The reality is, Casino’s simply don’t care that much. They just want good games. They don’t really like to get involved beyond that.

Your company? Do you own it? Are you on the board? Do you do the deals?  If the answer is No…. then this discussion is over mate.

[Anonymous WANTED $483 Inactive]

Oh yeah….and if the answer is yes. Then prove it.

[ar argyl53 WANTED $419 Outlaw]

The thing that rustles my tits when people like awesomex bring up this “true random” thing is that it’s completely irrelevant. The claim being disputed is that slots are algorithmically programmed to give or withhold payouts on the basis of some kind of predictable formula, such as money taken in (note how awesomex erroneously refers to a “pot” of winnings) or how much profit a casino decided it wants that day. That’s not how they work and that’s simply a fact, so whether the result generator is “true random”, pseudo random or based off how many days since it last rained in my back garden is completely inconsequential.

[Anonymous WANTED $483 Inactive]

I’m sorry but who gives a shit about which company’s system the slots run on. Wether it be the casinos or the actual slot providers. There’s obviously money deals involved, no matter what bloody server it’s on.

So your saying the casinos have no say whatsoever on how the games run. They just buy the game. And have absolutely nothing invested? No deals on losses no deals on winnings….nada?

And the Game providers have nothing invested. No deals and no vested interest on losses? They just rent the game for one number and that’s it?

like renting a house?

 

[Anonymous WANTED $483 Inactive]

And please don’t give a long drawn out winded reply.

a simple yes or no with a sprinkle of backed up proof will do.

Theres no prizes for riddles here. Just speak normal and to the point please.

[TheReelStory WANTED $14 Outlaw]

Just Basics wrote:

I’m sorry but who gives a shit about which company’s system the slots run on. Wether it be the casinos or the actual slot providers. There’s obviously money deals involved, no matter what bloody server it’s on.

So your saying the casinos have no say whatsoever on how the games run. They just buy the game. And have absolutely nothing invested? No deals on losses no deals on winnings….nada?

And the Game providers have nothing invested. No deals and no vested interest on losses? They just rent the game for one number and that’s it?

like renting a house?

 

I ran the business unit that provided the games, and the people, and only those people, within that business unit had any access to deploy or configure games (and yes, I know this because those people were the ones who set up the servers, deployed and wrote the code, tested integrated games and managed them day in day out).

Of course there are commercial deals. Casino’s keep the majority of profits. Gaming platform providers take a portion and slot providers take a portion (sometimes Gaming Platform and Slot Provider are the same company). Sometimes losses are deducted, sometimes losses carried over. All depends on the commercial arrangement. How does that impact the technicalities of a game?

As for the board? Company boards have bigger things to worry about. They have no clue what goes on in day to day operation. We reported P&L numbers to them. If they werte good they were happy, if not they were grumpy and asked what we were doing about it. That’s about it. They don’t have time to be micromanaging the people on the ground who actually do the work.

Casino’s have pretty much no say. Depends on teh game platform, they can define some limits. On the platform I ran (note ran, I don’t anymore) they could set Max Win cap, Max Stake, Stake selections, Min Stake in order to limit their exposure. Also if the game has multiple RTP versions created (up to the slot provider whether they want to make multiple RTP versions) they can order their prefered RTP. They can also request a specific RTP, but Slot Providers would rarely agree (expensive to redesign) unless it was a really big Casino and worth the hassle. Again, any changes are versioned, tested, independently tested, accredited, hashsummed and verified.

Most things going wrong were in a players favour. A jackpot was once misconfigured so its probability of paying out was higher than it should be, so someone won a chunk of cash when they shouldn’t have done. The things Casino’s worried about was when a game was paying out too much and they were worried it was broken. Other than that, they really didn’t care about anything on a game to game basis after they had ordered it and it was deployed, configured and tested.

Once a slot is live, it makes money. That is all Casino’s care about.

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